studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose."

>> the winter olympics in sochi ended on sunday but the conversation about russia continues. on wednesday, president vladimir putin the troops on high alert. tensions have increased after the ouster of president yanukovych. secretary of state john kerry says that russia must be careful. the new yorker editor david remnick has just returned from sochi. his article this week is called patriot games, vladimir putin lives his olympic dreams. i'm pleased to have my friend david remnick back at the table. here you are, not an editor. as they say in tv, who know? you never called me talented. >> it was a different experience for you.

you are there for nbc commenting. >> i did a few things with bob costas before his eye. poor guy. he played hurt as long as he could. >> the captain limped out. >> like el sid. most olympic games are the olympic games and they are exciting for the athletic things and you get to focus on a different city but this was destined from the start to be half olympic games and half event.al >> let's talk about the political event. this was seen as vladimir putin as what? >> the reassertion of russian confidence and power on the world stage. the soviet union collapsed in 1991 and with it collapsed not only on economy but a kind of national self-confidence, and

empire like the ottoman empire, austro-hungarian empire. a terrible was like time lapse photography over a generation. certain things happening that works jointly encouraging, but a lot of things happened that were awful. thething that happened was process of demoralization about the inability to build institutions, democratic institutions. utin sees himself as a man of an iron fist and development. that's the way he seems himself. >> he sees himself as the man in charge of a strong state. >> he is a state builder. at the this opportunity cost of $51 billion to

essentially build a city -- sochi was a very old, modest city. skiuch, bridges, roads, jumps, and it cost $51 billion that we know of. how much of it was bribery, we may never know. $51 billion is more than all the other winter olympics combined. >> the point was he wanted to show the world that russia is back, that russia is a player. >> it is modern, developing, and all he got going in was that you are having not only legitimate and serious concerns, the fact that sochi is right there smack in the middle of a region that has been called a war zone but certainly a conflict. middle ofng in the

the extremely legitimate protest against a disgusting anti-gay propaganda law. it is coming at a time when u.s. russian relations and relations with russia and the west are certainly not at their zenith and the ukraine was starting to happen in a very serious way and it played out over the course of two or three weeks. you also had kind of cheap cold war-esque sniping. badr put journalists in nonfunctioning hotel rooms when they have nothing to write about yet. [laughter] with twitter in action. , stray dogs. i thought some of this was really a bit much. far be it from me to sympathize with vladimir putin but that was

a bit much. >> was it successful? what he wanted to achieve? >> in large measure, yes. there was no terrorist attack. he made sure of that. not only was there the ring of steel around the olympic area but you could be very sure that the really hot areas, pressure from other concerned apparatus were in high demand. >> more likely the defense minister. >> i thought in the closing ceremonies there was even the flash of russian with that i love, see them making fun of themselves with the system ring not opening. that was a kind of showbiz moment of irony that was nice. told the story.

there was a narrative in the opening ceremony. part of my job, sitting in between matt lauer and meredith vieira. some people thought i was debbie downer. here comes the march persians of 1937. there was an attempt, however macy'sque du soleil, day thanksgiving parade in terms to show the best face forward even historically. centuries afor legacy of rivers, blood, oppression, but part of his of theatism and building state is to reassert a different history, a glorious history. wonderful future.

>> and to toboggan right past the unpleasantness because he feels we have heard that in the west has been dancing in the end zone about its victory in the cold war and the turmoil of russian history. >> it was the latest geostrategic tragedy of the century. >> what are we experiencing in the ukraine? >> this is another chapter in something that began in 1980 9-1991. the empire dissolves and that the solutions includes the most essential dissolution of all which is the relationship between russia and the ukraine. russian history begins in key, not moscow. that? is

>> long story, but they began in kiev and religion has its roots in kiev as well. certainly, vladimir putin was a state builder and someone who wants to reassert to some extent what he calls a eurasian union. >> of the eurasian union. >> belarus, central asia. isthe core of that russia-ukraine. yet within the ukraine, you have , until some days ago, yanukovych was low -- loyal to moscow. you have the eastern part of the ukraine that speaks russian predominantly and leads towards moscow. there are all kinds of divisions here. what i would say is that yanukovych was awful.

on the other hand, he was democratically elected. he was overthrown in the streets. he murdered dozens of his own people -- >> during the protests. >> absolutely. he was corrupt as corrupt could be. we are at a very familiar moment we have experienced over and over again, that excitement. it's that moment -- >> we think history is happening here. >> democratic institutions and the norms will take hold. the illusion of tahrir square. one wonders why the great authoritarians don't realize that a square is a bad thing to have in a city capital. an men square, red square, wenceslaus square. social media calls you to the square and it does not form political institutions and we are in that excitement where the

people rush to the mansion and see the golden toilets and the of thes and all documents come spilling out. of people'sdepths despair and the corruption. it is the journalistic cliché goes. ?> what should we fear what is in putin's mind now? he is basically saying, i cannot let this end? >> the question is what he tries to do to keep ukraine's low oil tea through money. >> cheap gas, cheap energy. >> even though they were having nice dances with the european union. >> that drama is far from over. this very morning, russia decided, not by coincidence, to have some military exercises not

far from the border of ukraine. >> saying, we are here. >> take note. we may be back in two or three weeks, god for bid. i could be wrong. i find it very hard to believe that russia would send troops into ukraine. toward what end would it be? i just don't know? russia is asserting itself on the world stage in sochi and of his ownmaster almost cartoonish self-confidence, they have a lot of problems. of the it work in terms russian psyche in the appeal of putin? forgetink we should not

that the majority of the people in intellectual moscow and st. petersburg, good liberals, younger people , yes,ng the middle class they are long since tired of putin. they want to see development of a realdent judiciary legislature, the rule of law, free press, all of these things. right now, you have an authoritarian situation and he has peaked. 60's.ill in his i think barack obama would be very pleased. like themething could lik arab spring could spread.

if we have not learned humility of judgment about the direction that these things take whether it is in a positive way in tunisia or highly chaotic way in egypt, then we have learned nothing. we have learned nothing. ukraine is not a story of russia but it is a story of itself and it is highly, highly complicated. remember, you already had what seemed like an exciting democratic revolution one decade ago, the orange revolution. >> 2004. >> he turned out to be corrupt, ineffective, erratic, and is replaced. then there was commissioned go -- timeshenko. >> what were her role be? >> less than she wants. look. let's not idealize completely

what's on the square whether it tahrir or another. ofre is a distinct minority the kind of nationalists that are really gross, awful. even neofascists. the russian leadership has tried to paint everyone in the opposition with that broad brush and i do not think it has succeeded at all. it is not just the good guys in the square and the evil bit hater. there are complications that run much deeper than that. >> is a possible because of all these problems and issues, we know what is happening with respect to issue where boudin stepped up and began to have -- ersations >> up to a point. instead of killing people,

slaughter by chemical weapons, it is slaughter by bombs. >> and it seems that assad has gained some strength. >> and the opposition's pictures have changed for the worse. look. i think something interesting is taking place in putin himself. and he came back to reassert his presidency, he really did not have an ideology before. there was this centralization of power. >> an old kgb guy. now you see the conservative moralistic anti-western ideology. >> you had sat next to him during dinner. during "the washington post?" >> tom brokaw had dinner while he was in office for a little while in new york at one of

those u.n. activities. i was put next to him probably because i can speak russian and iswas, at that time -- this in 2002 or so. he had not been in office very habits of posture and the way he did and did not interact with, to him, very suspicious western characters, most of the reporters, editors, he was very much a kgb man. ighly reserved, very wry, tough, no sense of humor intsoever and not strutting self-confidence, as cartoonish as he can be now.

off, tranquilizer gun shooting tigers, wales, underwater deep-sea diving for archaeological treasures. this is part of creating the of a vital russian man. >> the real man. >> we find it hilarious and fodder for jon stewart or playsn colbert, but it big with the base. >> david remnick, new yorker magazine. "putin's bid for gold." back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

[applause] we begin this evening with a look at islam in tunisia. joining me now from washington is rachid ghannouchi a cofounder of a moderate islamist hardy and 10 asia that took hardy and 2011 after the ouster of president ben ali. he urged his own party to step down making room for the interim government in the drafting of the constitution signed into law

january 26 and elections will be held later this year. within the military coup in egypt and the civil war in syria, tunisia is seen as the last glimmer of hope in the so-called arab string. i'm pleased to have rachid ghannouchi on the program with me for the first time. thank you for joining us. >> i welcome you, sir. with threeegin quotes about tanisha. first, what you have said in an interview with my friend. you said, "tunisia is the last candle still shining and the arab spring despite all of the wins that are blowing at it." in his speech today on washington, you said tom "the tunisian model has proven to the whole world that democracy is a dream that can be realized in the muslim world and around the world despite the regression in the arab spring countries over

the last few months." and from tom friedman, why is it that the arab awakening country where the u.s. had the least involvement is where the most democracy?"ards a i want to begin this evening with your telling us where tunisia is today and how you were able with the tunisian people and other leaders to bring it to this place. >> tunisia, following the constitution and after the setting up of a national elections, the dependent commission, and after forming of

the tunisiant, train is already on the path to elections by the end of the year so that tunisia would declare the first arab democratic government. >> what have you done diderently in tunisia that not happen in egypt, syria, or other places? >> the circumstances of tunisia are different than other arab countries. we took on the consensual democracy rather than the democracy of the majority. promoted them among all factions in order to reach a

consensus. we do not count on the majority on. there is a success for the tunisian elites and all its actions in order to reach consensus. i think there is a failure on groups tof other build a consensus among themselves. >> some of those who are members of your own party and others who feel very strong about islam have asked the question, should they be disappointed that the constitution does not enshrine shield law -- shia law would declare itself an islamic state. >> members of our party are

andlar to the individuals satisfied with the outcome we have achieved from where tunisia has emerged and started to move towards democracy. but islam is mentioned in the constitution. merger successful between moderate islam and more secular modern values. therefore, moderate islamists found and thes constitution a reflection of themselves and that is why they are satisfied but extremists on course they of

would not be satisfied with the constitution but they are a minority. most of the tunisian people are moderates. designated ahas terrorist organization. is indeed as long as they resort to violence in order to impose its ideology, that it is a terrorist organization. sayshe washington post " tunisia succeeded in large part who urged his movement to set aside most of its ideological agenda in favor of compromise. is that a fair appraisal of what you did?

>> we appreciate for this newspaper, the spirit treatment to us -- this fair treatment to us, but this was from our keen interest to ensure the interest. we tolerated the tolerance and we have no interest outside of the national interests. we think islam is a faith of tolerance, compassion, diversity, and not a faith that calls for killing and it is not against democracy or human rights. >> you believe you are showing that islam and democracy can come together and function together. >> this is the instance of our

enterprise. to work in the political arena, when i founded , however the enterprises to affirm that it does not contradict but complement each other in the has beenconstitution successful between islam modernity, gender equality, it is all inclusive and it recognizes the rights of minorities. >> was it difficult for you to have to deal with members of the regime that had imprisoned you on more than one occasion? >> yes, it was difficult.

we have to overcome our personal retributioninflict because that would not lead to ruling.y but rather therefore, we trusted the transition system so that individuals would be held .ccountable for the group the parties were operating under the old era and it is the judgment of the people who will hold them accountable. the democratic system would hold them accountable. if the nation or the people elect them, that is the people's judgment. mistake -- or do you believe the muslim brotherhood made a serious mistake in egypt?

perhaps that they did not consensus achieving between themselves and their opponents, perhaps they may have relied on the rule of legitimate cy and it would have been established. nascenthe case of democracies, the majority by must be consensus, there must be a national dialogue that is all-inclusive and would lead to the participation of the major and the major powers are ate islamicists and secularists that must

cooperate. one side is not sufficient to attain the goal. opposingu and the political parties do things to make sure that the military or the army would not get involved in politics? >> this is a significant difference between egypt and tunisia. politicized army is and rule the country for over 60 and did not believe the power would go out of its hands, but the tunisian army is not it didized and therefore not become a party to the maintainsaction but its mission in order to save god regardless of the country to ensure the security of the

nation. thatoided the prospects the country would slide into crisis because this would give a not want the do military to intervene in politics. >> do you believe that you have created a model that will be a shining light for other countries that are struggling between islam and democracy? not just in the middle east but asia and other places? >> this is actually our dream, our vision. that this would continue to evolve and would cease to become a transient describe theld

future of the entire region as a whole. >> do believe it is possible, not what has happened in egypt but one of the most powerful tontries in the region regain what you have discovered and created, notwithstanding what looks like the corset is on? -- course it is on? >> i am fully convinced that the in tunisia,mocracy egypt, and across the globe, there is no reason that could make us believe that the egyptian people or arabs in general are not qualified for democracy. it is not a solution. it is a problem. democracy is the

and not aor egypt military coup d'état. factionsian groups and are the solution. the coup d'état would be a problem and they would not have a future. my advice to the egyptians is to go back to dialogue and consideration and to that exclusion is not a solution but would be an essential problem. >> it looks like it is going the other way, not in dialogue but in terms of military control. is like all d'état other who do not provide a solution but would deepen the

.risis sooner or later, the egyptian people will go back to a democracy because fear of the autocrats, dictators, would be eliminated. the ruler has done away from the hearts of people. people have restored confidence in themselves. what has been achieved in two tanisha shows that people are schlanger than rulers and people have the means and the tools to .hape themselves therefore, the egyptian people will not go backward and they will continue to struggle until freedom and their liberty. >> what does the tunisian economy need? what is necessary for >> itizing the economy?

is necessary for the tunisian , first and foremost, democracy. stability, the natural resources of tunisia are limited but the adversary are the human element. tunisians are uneducated people, and educated nation and the geographic location of tunisia at the heart of the mediterranean basin qualifies to accelerate the development and catch up with malaysia and singapore. what is required now our democratic systems and therefore tunisia today would be qualified if they are had -- held

successfully. tunisians believe in the social economy. it gives importance to tunisiashed areas and is well poised to interact with its geographic region, with europe, the united states, africa. a is qualified to represent model for democracy and development, a model for coexistence between islamists and secularists. >> do you believe that violent islamists remain a serious force and threat in tanisha?

>> the sentiments of the peacefulpeople is culture. the mainstream culture is against violence. terrorism in tunisia is quite an extraordinarily exceptional case . it is a universal sentiment that you find in tunisia. democracy, development, and we managed to explain to the tunisian youth that rather islam is justice, tolerance, and quality. >> how much resistance is to what your goals and dreams, how

much resistance within your own party? >> this is a well established culture and our party for years now. i have written extensively about that in my books, my articles, my presentations, and whole generation of tunisians were raised against this cultural background and this has become forceful in tunisia, especially the democratic stance that has become an attractive model for you and islam is. >> what do you expect from the united states?

>> we expect that the united to consider that the success of the tunisian government is enough work. toinvite the united states the promoteime in democracy in order to build up a model for democratic transformation because this is the most viable path to combat terrorism. othert do you expect from moderate islamist?

we expect from moderate islamists, which are the mainstream of islam because extreme margin. it is an exception. we expect that muslims all over the world, that democracy would be the path to development, the path to unity, and to renounce violence and promote the correct islam meaning of justice, equality, mercy, and compassion among all human beings and that islam promotes everything that is good, everything that is beneficiary to the community. >> is there a battle now in the

world of action and ideas for the heart and soul of islam? represents country what can be accomplished in democracy, moderation. on the other hand, we see a minority of islamists who believe that they look at egypt and other places and believe the is through armed insurrection and insurgency. >> indeed, there is a battle for islam. they would like to hijack "islam ." in order to use it to end in order to dictate its ideology on .uman beings islam stands for justice,

liberty, and any element to control human beings because the overwhelming majority of muslims want to live in peace like other human beings. they would like to see good come to all people. they would like to see justice and compassion purveying across the society. they would just like to see that and there is no room for richer view showing or extremism. what roleally this, will you play on the future of tunisia? >> this question relates to me personally. i really have no special political ambitions for myself.

the tunisianed by theion which was led tunisian youth. we would like them to be in the vanguard leading the whole process. and could continue my role contribute to the success of men, then iodern i havee happy because done something for the tunisian people, the arabs, the muslims, and for all humankind. >> and the urgent need, the immediate need is what? >> the urgent need today is to

that dialogue, and pursuing the path of coexistence and steering away from exclusion is the solution. bring on board all tunisians. they should bring on board all egyptians. we must learn the skill and art so that we all enjoy happiness instead of working one party against the other. >> thank you for joining us this evening. it's a pleasure to have you on this broadcast and i hope we can do it again. to see you,hope sir, in tunisia. if you come and visit tunisia, nicernice but it is

without a dictator, without ben ali. it is nicer with democracy. >> rachid ghannouchi talking about the shining example of democracy. thank you again. >> thank you, sir. i am pleased to have had this interview with you. my jacket moved up and i had my firearm in on my right side hip. i feel like you saw it. he looked at it and he said, you're going to die tonight." felt his arm going down my side and i grabbed it and i just grabbed my arm around and i held on.

years have passed since trey von martin, an unarmed gatedteenager killed in a florida community. the criminal trial of george zimmerman and his acquittal riveted the nation. even president obama weighed in. >> you know, when trey von martin was first shot, i said it could have been my son. another way of saying that is trey von martin could have been me. when you think about why in the african-american community at least there's a lot of pain around what happened here, i think it's important to that the african-american community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history

that does not go away. for nbcovered this case news and msnbc and she writes about it in a new book, suspicion nation, the inside story of the trey von martin and martin -- trayvon injustice. let's talk about zimmerman first. since the acquittal, what has happened? >> he's popped up in the news. his wife and girlfriend have accused him of pointing guns at them. they both recanted and dropped the charges. we've seen him go to the gun pose forrer and pictures like a celebrity. he signed up to do a celebrity boxing match but after public outcry, that was canceled. >> why was he acquitted? thee was acquitted because

state of florida failed to make his case. room, theyjury described going through and i want to make it clear that i do not blame the jury. andblame the professionals the prosecutors for making such profound blunders in this case that i've never seen. defense did a good job in the sense of putting trey von martin on trial when he should not be. he's the victim in this case, but in reality, that's what happens. the prosecution allowed trey von on the defense. bute was not only on trial he did not have an effective advocate in the courtroom. i don't think the prosecution believed in their case. they do not believe he was a victim because they did not argue the evidence they had. ofthere were some questions

the prosecution. >> until april 11, they did not even charge him. they did not think he was worthy of being arrested and it was the public outcry, the groundswell of support. many participated in that and it led to the arrest but that is just the beginning, not the end. they still had approved the case. >> did they have a theory of the case? >> they did not and i've never seen a prosecutor win without a theory of the case. you have to give the jury a story. they will not do that job for you. defense willt the do. >> the defense had a very coherent theory one that george zimmerman articulated from the very first moment when he arrived smoking gun in hand and said it was self-defense. defense painted a very scary picture. trey von martin was assaulting

him, reaching for the gun so he had to grab the gun and shoot in self-defense. it's a terrifying story and if anyone believed it it would be self-defense but the mechanics of the evidence did not support thatd he showed on video his gun was holstered behind him and therefore it would not be physically possible for him to be lying on his back on a dark night with treayvotn martin to see the gun. >> what is your theory of the case? >> putting together the evidence very carefully and having watched the trial several times hehe took the gun down when initially encountered martin. we know he did not want him to get away. frustrated with other young african-american men that you call the police about that had gotten away. we know from the young woman that trayvon was talking to on the phone, his first words were,

"why were you following me? get off. get off." that sounds as though zimmerman was the aggressor and ironically he was the one standing his ground. i think you got one good punch in and that is reflected in the injuries. he did not count his head on the cement like he's said and he certainly did not see the gun and reach for it because it would not be physically possible. >> has racial profiling in this country changed? to discover how widespread racial profiling is and it's not just florida. , racialork city profiling has been a profound problem. said 4al judge has million african-american and hispanic young males were racially profile and it was unconstitutional. it happens all over the country.

one thing i wanted to do with the book is say this is not just about demonizing george zimmerman that all of us looking at our own implicit racial biases. most of us think we are not racist yet when you take these clever psychological tests you may discover you do have an explicit racial bias. there is no denying that the outcomes are still very bad in terms of income, education, housing, jobs. the only way to overcome is to understand and acknowledge how this deep-seated bias continues to work. law enforcement and police can be trained to stop engaging in racial profiling. doctors can be trained to stop spending twice as much time with white patients than black patients. when we become conscious, we can change. most of us want to be egalitarian. >> the book is called "suspicion nation" by lisa bloom.

thank you for coming. >> thank you so much. >> thank you for joining us. we'll see you next time. ♪

this is "taking stock" for thursday, february 27, 2014. the theme is go big or go home. tesla is spending big. they are creating a factory. we will hear about the bidding contest for the big investment for batteries. plus the restaurant chain bojangles has been serving more than 3 billion biscuits since they first welcomed customers in 1977. find out if they can keep it up. maybe after chicken, you want